Law Firm to In-House: How JSX CLO Kerrie Forbes Leads Legal at an Aviation Disruptor

Kerrie Forbes0:00
Representing a company, being in-house for a company, what is right for the company may not always be what is, you know, the strongest legal argument, if that makes sense. I mean, it might be a situation where I could take something all the way to the Supreme Court and win, you know, if it if I could get there. But I can reach a resolution by negotiating an outcome. We can all live with it and be happy with it. You know, if we can reach a resolution, that's great. And if we can't, then I'm gonna fight for that fundamental sense of fairness and what's right.

Cecilia Ziniti0:33
Welcome back to CZ and Friends, where we talk with legal leaders, technologists, and operators building the future of business and law. I'm your host, Cecilia Ziniti. Today's guest has navigated some of the most complex legal airspace literally out there. Kerrie Forbes is the chief legal officer at JSX, a fast-growing semi-private jet service redefining regional air travel and challenging the status quo in the airline industry. Before JSX, Kerrie spent 16 years at Southwest Airlines, where she led litigation, regulatory, employment law through major transformations at what is America's most loved airline. She began her career at Jones Day and now leads legal strategy at a destructor that's scaling fast and sparking change. Exactly the kind of person we're excited to speak with on the show. In this episode, we talk about building legal strategy at a challenge your brand, the next generation of legal careers, and what it means to lead with clarity at 30,000 feet and on the ground. Kerrie, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. All right, so let's start right there. Let's start with where JSX is now. So you said it's today's version of what Southwest once was. Scrappy, beloved, customer first.

Kerrie Forbes1:38
Walk us through it. So we're very much inspired by the roots of Southwest. We're very, very different than Southwest now. Um, Southwest has gone and, you know, has grown and is in a very different direction, very unique, not like any other major carrier at all. We're a tiny little carrier. We operate under different regulations and we provide a very different experience to the customer. Just to give you kind of an overview of how we operate, we operate under different regulations that require us to, we can't have more than 30 passengers on our flights. And so we take 50-seat aircraft and we convert them to 30-seat aircraft, which results in a lot more legroom. It's essentially business class legroom for every single seat. So you either are sitting by yourself on one side or one and two. So they're embryo 135 and 145. Um, very spacious, very nice finish out experience.

Cecilia Ziniti2:31
Looking at the Reddit reviews and people are are absolutely, I guess, gushing. You got to tell me, how do you make possible a 20-minute wait time? So when you think about going to the airport, so I live in the Bay Area, going down to SoCal to visit my sister or whatever, it's almost faster to drive by the time you get the two hours at the airport and this and that. It's different on JSX. How do you do that? And what is it? What is the 20-minute thing?

Kerrie Forbes2:56
Very different on JSX. So we don't fly out of the main terminals of airports. We fly out of either FBOs or out of smaller airports. And so we operate our own security. It is a TSA-approved security program. So it is a robust security program with and we have actually just enhanced it with some additional technology, but it is streamlined. It is you it is not like the TSA experience where you have to go to the airport. In addition, it's not just the security, but where you park, you get dropped off right at the location where you're going to get right on that plane. You go through a very short security process that is robust, but short, 30 people on your on your flight. So it's not a long line and it it's just minutes from the time you get there to the time you're on the aircraft.

Cecilia Ziniti3:39
So I think you just hit about like nine regulations at least in describing that process, right? So you got like security, you've got probably regional, you know, local stuff, the airport authorities. What's the what's what's the universe of those? Of like the main kind of kind of regulatory. So a lot of our audience is is attorneys and thinking about okay, like how do you take that customer obsession and actually enable it?

Kerrie Forbes4:02
And so tell us a little bit about the regulatory side. So operationally, we've got on the on the safety side are the FAA regulations. And so we operate under part 135 and part 380. We are a public charter operator, and and those are the regulations that um restrict us to the the 30 seats and um and have a few other additional restrictions or or provisions that make us different. These are regulations where you may have seen stories where we have been accused of operating under a regulatory loophole or you know, skirting the regulations. That's just absolutely not true. These are regulations that have been in existence for decades. Our business model has been around for decades, and our our actual business, we just celebrated our ninth anniversary. And we have safely and securely flown millions of passengers on hundreds of thousands of flights, very safely under those FAA regulations. And then we've also got the TSA regulations, which are the security side. That's the post-9-11, the security world in aviation. And so we operate under different regulations on the security side. Now, major carriers operate under what's called an AOSSP, and that is the security program that's for major carriers. We operate under what's called a TFSSP. And so it's different for us. It's, you know, it's what is approved and designed by TSA for the nature of our operation. You also may have seen some of our, some of our competitors who are trying to shut us down who said, oh, our security is not sufficient. But that's absolutely not true. We have robust security, and TSA actually just looked at public charter operators and did some enhancements to our security program. And we are rolling out those enhancements. And I we think it's actually going to be a nice, a nicer customer experience in a lot of ways. I love that. I love that.

Cecilia Ziniti5:50
Um, so is the, you know, you mentioned competitors trying to shut you down. You know, you've got this kind of upstart thing. Turns out your CEO was an intern at Southwest. And at one point it was Southwest that was the upstart. Is that like full circle or tell me about that? I think it's so interesting. So the the history there basically, Southwest was founded by a guy who's a lawyer, Herb Keller, right? And he basically was disrupting airlines at the time, and then now he's the disrupted. I don't know.

Kerrie Forbes6:18
Tell us about that. So interesting. It's very interesting. So um Alex did Switch as our CEO and founder, and he he was an intern at Southwest a long time ago, a summer intern, I believe it was, and did work directly with Herb and with others and was very much inspired by Herb. He also was a founder of Jet Blue, Kingfisher Airways Airlines, Airways, Airlines, I think it is. And so he has extensive experience in aviation. He's also very much an entrepreneur and an innovator. And so he was aware of these regulations and was aware of this business model and really thought it was something that hadn't been that that there was an opportunity to create this new business model that, you know, under the regulations and in compliance with the regulations, and create something that would be really special and different for customers. And it has really proven to be true. Our customers just love us. And so obviously the big carriers don't love us so much because it is really shaking up, shaking up what people expect in in aviation. People love the concept of this joyful, simple travel experience where it's easy and it's comfortable and you have wonderful Wi-Fi the entire flight that's free and you don't have to pay to check your bags, and you can just get dropped off and jump on your plane and land, and you are where you are, and it's just a really, really nice experience. It's funny comparing it to Southwest. When I started at Southwest, which was gosh, almost 20 years ago now, you know, Southwest was the darling, you know, not just in Dallas, but really everywhere. And when I told people where I worked, people would say, Oh my gosh, I have to tell you a story. Herb Keller calling, that company's so great. And they would just go on and on about Southwest. And I was so proud to work for a company that was so beloved. And I feel exactly the same way at JSX. It's very similar to the vibe of Southwest in the sense that people either have never heard of us because we're very tiny, or if they've heard of us, they are they want to share a story. They want to tell you how great they think you are, or oh my gosh, I saw this Instagram post and it looks so cool. People are very excited about what we do and they love us. I love that.

Cecilia Ziniti8:23
So one of the I think not not every lawyer would necessarily run to something that that, you know, at least was could be characterized as a gray area. So I'll give you an example. So I was a lawyer on Alexa, and I tell people when I first was told what it was, there's a lot of privacy lawyers that might say, you know, a hot mic in your house, peace out, like not gonna not gonna work on that. Similarly with you all, you know, this is it is approved. It does sound like you, you know, you've really thought deeply about this regulation, but it's looking at it in a different way. So put us in your shoes when you were interviewing at JSX and deciding whether to take the role. What was going through your head?

Kerrie Forbes9:02
So it was, it was really the perfect time in my career to consider a move. I had been at Southwest for a really long time. I had done labor and employment for about half of my career. I had headed up the litigation team. So I had a breadth of experience and I was really excited about a GC opportunity. I had also, I really didn't know very much about JSX when the recruiter reached out to me, but I had heard nothing but good things really from people who had flown on it. And so when the opportunity came up and it was such a perfect fit for my skill set, I figured I think I should at least investigate this. And I did a lot of research, a lot of reading, a lot of reading on the regulations. I read the briefing that had been submitted, everything that, you know, was out there in the public domain that I could find to research the company and the legal arguments. And I felt like, you know what? I think this company's got the right argument here. It was funny when I, this is a really funny story, when I told my mom that I was moving to JSX from Southwest, she said, Oh, I submitted a thing on their behalf to the government saying that they should stay alive. And I was like, Mom, you realize I work for Southwest, right? And she was like, Well, I think they have the better argument. Wow.

Cecilia Ziniti10:12
So that gave me the chills. That literally is like when you talk about one of the things I think Uber used is like Uber was effectively illegal in most places when they started off, but they had such pull from customers. So this is like your own mother literally is like compelled here. What a story. So when you heard that, like the angels sing, you're like, I'm taking a job.

Kerrie Forbes10:34
It really well, I had already taken the job at that point. So I was really, it was, it was so funny because I told her and she told me that story, and I was like, okay, if they convinced you, and you and she's a loyal, I mean, she still is a loyal Southwest fan. I mean, she flies Southwest all the time. She's a Southwest credit card holder. She flies all my my nieces and nephews to go visit her on Southwest. So she loves Southwest, but she really thought JSX had the better argument here. And I agreed. Lovely.

Cecilia Ziniti10:59
All right. So you spent a decade at Southwest and you had some pretty high profile matters. Is there is there a case or a moment that that stands out among those? Our listeners and me too, I'm a sucker for a good story. Any good stories? I mean, I have to think litigation with millions of passengers, employment law, like there's got to be some crazy stuff maybe that's public you can talk about.

Kerrie Forbes11:21
Yeah, you know, I think the most recent story that has been really public for for JSX is our our story in Orange County. There was, it's it's one of the locations where we have had um we had an ongoing legal battle, both with the airport and with the location where we were operating as to whether we would even be permitted to keep operating there. And so that was one where I came into it very far along in the process where they this had been ongoing for a long time. And we were able to get it resolved over the course of last year. And then just recently we had a ribbon cutting, and you know, at the end of the day, we developed really good relationships with the people and ended up with this very public ribbon cutting and and happy ending. And so I think that that's the most recent one that was, you know, a big public story where I I felt so excited to be part of it from the legal side. Wow. So what uh what ended up happening? Or is it is it resolved at this point? It's funny. When when I started, at the same time that I was came into my role at JSX, we promoted uh a guy who's on my team, Ken Edmondson, to be our VP of airport affairs. And so he took over the real estate role. And then at the same around around the same time, the airport got a new airport director. And I think changing up the people who were involved in that situation was incredibly helpful because the prior history had been extremely adversarial and it was not working together to achieve a good goal. And so when we changed up the people who were involved, we really changed the narrative. And we went in as, you know, trying to be partners, trying to be good partners with the airport and with the county, trying to understand what their concerns were, what their needs are, and trying to explain to them that we really are a good, a good partner for you and we add value. We we're gonna add value for the people of the county of Orange. We're gonna add value for the people who want to travel here and visit your county. And it's a good thing. And so over the course of the year, we were able to build those relationships, build that understanding, and get to a resolution that was not in court. We were able to, you know, all of that was kind of put on hold while we negotiated a resolution and then the case was recently dismissed. And now we're all, we all work very well together. So it was a great example of just changing the tone and changing the relationships to have a great effective outcome.

Cecilia Ziniti13:46
Is that something kind of universal or like were you able to come in and kind of diagnose that situation as needing a people change or needing a tone change? Yes. How were you how were you able yeah, exactly? So how were you able to do that? And is that kind of like you know, so we've got a lot of GCs, a lot of would-be GCs listening, thinking about like public policy, like what what is there a wider takeaway there? I guess maybe is the question.

Kerrie Forbes14:10
Yeah, I I mean I think my nature as a leader is to try to approach things in a collaborative, positive way, uh, you know, in litigation, especially because a lot of the litigation that I do is either dealing with customers who might be upset or crew members, employees who who might be upset. And we want to we want to maintain our brand and we want to do the right thing. And so I I I always want to go in and look and assess, you know, what do I think is the right outcome here? And it it it's not always based technically on the law. What is the right outcome for the company here? And so I think a lot of a successful approach to situations like that is not just focusing on what the law is. Yeah, we have the best legal argument to go in, we're gonna file something in court and win, especially when you you've got relationships with airports or with the FBOs where we have have leases. We have to maintain those relationships. It's not a one-time deal. I mean, these are relationships we're gonna have for years and years as we continue to operate. And so it's incredibly important to go in and build those relationships in a positive way.

Cecilia Ziniti15:13
Is that uh something that is different in-house versus at law firms? And how have you made sure that your law firms embrace that mindset?

Kerrie Forbes15:21
That's a great question. I I have definitely seen as people make the transition from law firm to in-house, it's it's a hard transition to make because I think when you are at a firm, you are trained to be so conservative and to uh research what the law is and you give the guidance on what the law is. And um and if you're in litigation, we're gonna fight and we're gonna win. And in-house is at least my approach to in-house is very different. It is working to find the right business solution, which sometimes you have to be creative. Sometimes you have to say, well, the regulation says this, and we can meet the regulation if we do something a little bit creative to get there, which is not how I mean JSX is operating squarely under the regulations for operations. I I don't I'm not talking about those regulations, but you know, it if there are areas where we can accomplish the business need and and violate the law, let's figure out a creative way to do that. So I think that's really important. And then on the on the litigation side, I think a lot of being in-house is litigation avoidance. Whereas, you know, if you're at a firm, you probably want to have the litigation because that's how you make the money. Um, our goal is to not have the litigation. My my goal is to to keep us out of litigation. And so if we have a customer situation, I may be giving guidance on it and saying, hey, well, we should consider maybe, you know, talking to them and explaining what happened or whatever and try to try to get the situation resolved before it turns into litigation.

Cecilia Ziniti16:46
How do you strike that balance? I mean, I think for me, I'm a former litigator as well. And I when I uh have been in litigation, sometimes I'm just kind of like tired of it. Like like tired of it in the sense of like, you know, we'll have a discovery request or something, and my outside counsel is like, we gotta fight this. I'm like, just setting the documents. Like I just kind of I'm like just kind of done. And and I don't know if it's like fatigue or if it's that sense of like, why are we here? But when do you make those calls of like, all right, we're gonna fight this one? They are in the wrong, you know, we're gonna go to the mat on whatever it is. How do you make that call? And maybe you don't, but uh, but how do you make that call?

Kerrie Forbes17:24
It's funny, I think that over the course of the very long time that I've been practicing law, I've kind of seen a shift in the tone of opposing counsel on the ability to work things out, which I think is unfortunate. When I first started practicing, I feel like it was easier to say, hey, let's go to mediation and get things resolved for unreasonable terms. I don't think that's always the case now, but I still try to approach litigation with that mindset of can we reach a resolution that makes sense to both sides? And I mean makes sense to both sides, not that we're gonna throw in the towel, we're gonna do anything that would be to the detriment of the business or you know, just throw money at you to make you go away. But really, is there is there a resolution that makes sense based on the specific facts? And and I think I've I've developed a pretty good feel for it, having done this for so long. And then you when you get to the point where you where it's clear that that's not gonna happen, we're gonna fight. And when you know that you're on the side of right and maybe a court's made a wrong decision or your adversary just won't let it go, we're gonna fight.

Cecilia Ziniti18:27
So in that, you know, the you have a right on your side. So I I have a little story that I'll share and maybe it'll spark something for you. So I was in the litigation and we did go to mediation. It was a it was a judge, or maybe it was arbitration, I forget, but anyway, it was it was it was a judge that that spoke with us. And this particular judge happened to also be an adjunct at Stanford. And in the process of discussing with them, I I basically said something in the effect of like, this case is crazy. The other, like the other side is plum nuts. Like, what do I tell my students? Because I was also an adjunct at the time, about justice, given that we're sitting here. And this judge said to the something to the effect of like, you tell them that sometimes you pay money to get crazy people out of your life. And I was like, oh my God, this is like such a miscarriage of justice. It was like offensive to me. And it was like, you know, it was relatively early in my career, or you know, it was like, and it was one of these things where I'm like, you know what? Like that judgment of like when do you pay money? When do you just like whatever? Uh, I felt like I needed to develop that. So so have you developed that and how?

Kerrie Forbes19:31
It is very hard. And I especially because as my my family will tell you, I have a very strong fundamental sense of fairness. Mm-hmm. I really do. Yes. I mean, a lot of us do. It's why you go to law school, at least in part. And so I of course I've I always want to fight for what is right. But I think representing a company, being in-house for a company, what is right for the company may not always be what is, you know, the strongest legal argument, if that makes sense. I mean, it might be a situation where I could take something all the way to the Supreme Court and win, you know, if it if I could get there. But I can reach a resolution by negotiating an outcome with, let's say, an airport or an FBO or something where we can all live with it and be happy with it. You know, if we can reach a resolution, that's great. And if we can't, then I'm gonna fight for that fundamental sense of fairness and what's right. Exactly. No, I love that. I love that.

Cecilia Ziniti20:23
Any um, what's your advice to new people on your team about either aviation or practicing and practicing in-house?

Kerrie Forbes20:30
Right. So um I have a very lean team right now. I just have one other attorney right now, and she's she's great. She has a lot of aviation experience. So that was really helpful that she had that. But I we have talked a lot about the change between going from a firm to being in-house because it is a it is a different mindset. So trying to strive for finding that business resolution that makes sense for the business, even if you have to figure out how to get there when the law may be the easy answer might be to say, oh no, the law won't let us do this. The harder solution may be to say, well, I think we can get there. We just have to think strategically about how we're gonna do that. And so it's really important to be a good business partner, to understand the business, to develop those relationships with the business people, to understand the business needs and to be a part of the team and making those decisions. So I think I think that's very important. I mean, the other thing about coming in-house, especially on such a small little legal team with, you know, we're a very busy company for a small company. We have a lot of legal needs. And it's I think a lot of people have the misperception that being in-house is, oh, you get the work life balance. You don't have to work at the firm with all those hours. It's the opposite. I mean, as you know, I mean, it's you're on all the time, and your office is right there where the people are sitting. And so everyone can just pop into your office and want an answer right then. And so learning to triage and prioritize and say no and buy time, which can be hard when you have people coming and saying, but I need this tomorrow. And you say, But I have 10 other people ahead of you and I have something that's an emergency. So those are, I think those are the main things when you come in-house, having to learn to deal with all of those things. I love that.

Cecilia Ziniti22:12
So let's switch gears a little bit. You're leading legal strategy, you're disrupting, you're doing this amazing, you know, empowering these joyful experiences at work. Turns out you also have a power squad of lawyers at home. So your spouse is a lawyer, your daughter just finished one her one year, and you're on the board of Wake Forest Law.

Kerrie Forbes22:30
Three lawyers in the family. What is that like? Well, I'm on the law board of visitors. It's it's not the board board, but so Lily, our daughter, just finished her first year and it it was at at UVA. We're so happy she decided to go to law school. It was not something that we had pushed her to do or encouraged her to do, it and wasn't really the path that she decided until late in college. But she's obviously gotten to watch us and hear us and observe us practicing law for her whole life. And so she very much knew what she was getting into. She wants to be a litigator like her dad and um and a commercial litigator. And and so we spend way too much time talking about the law in our house. She's um living with us this summer while she clerks here in Dallas, and it's been great having her here, but we definitely talk way too much about the law. But it's a good thing. She's just really done well her first year and is a way better student and really loves learning about the law more than either my husband or myself. We just couldn't be more proud of her.

Cecilia Ziniti23:30
That's amazing. So, does the topic of AI come up in that conversation? So I get to ask this a lot, right? Obviously, given the nature of what we do at GCAI, but I think there is a category of folks that is most concerned about the new lawyers like her and what happens with AI. So does it come up and and what's what's the thinking?

Kerrie Forbes23:47
It's come up quite a bit. As you know, we just at JSX, we just invested in GCAI probably close to six months ago, maybe a little bit less than that. And it's been a great choice for us. But we had had a lot of conversations about it before we did that. And I actually talked to my daughter about it too, to just kind of feel things out with her and see where things are. Uh and we talk have talked about it a lot this summer as I I'm using GCAI. Our intern um doesn't have the ability to use GCAI. She doesn't have a license, but she came to us with uh an AI program from her school. And so um that's been helpful uh to learn. And then Lily ha has been learning about it during her uh summer clerkship and and exposed to different programs. And so it's been really fun to talk about it and learn about it. And I'm learning to experiment with it more. I mean, it's absolutely the future. I think everybody's gonna have to get on board with it, whether you like it or not. But it it it has taken me a little while to get out to to get more comfortable with it. Um awesome. And so what do you think the practice of law looks like when Lily's, let's say, five years in? I think not just the practice of law, but business generally is gonna be vastly different. I I already see people using things like co-pilot. I think people were using Chat GPT more, but now things like Copilot and uh, of course, GCAI for our legal team to really be more efficient and effective with their days. And I do think it will reduce outside council spend. I don't think it's gonna ever replace lawyers, but I think it's gonna change the way we practice law.

Cecilia Ziniti25:19
So that's actually a great segue. So you and I were introduced by a mutual friend, Rebecca Feich, now at Reed Smith, and I admire her super deeply. Interesting story. When people ask me who are the lawyers that AI will not replace, um, the outside counsel AI will not replace, she's at the top of my list because she's got the 10 years at the Securities Exchange Commission, you know, just very deep in this particular area where she knows the regulators and so on. Good fun. Shout out Rebecca, we'll send you this. But um, she's also had a big impact on you. One what's been your interactions with her? And, you know, how do you um what do you learn from outside counsel generally?

Kerrie Forbes25:56
No, she really has, I would say in some ways, she helped change my life. She has become just such a dear friend of mine. We were worked together and and um she we ended up going on a legal retreat together, which is where we really became friends. That's actually where I met you too. And um, I was just really inspired by getting to know both her and all the women on that retreat. I just I would say most of the women on the retreat were much like Rebecca were about 10 or 15 years younger than me. And it was just amazing to see all these powerful women just killing it out there, practicing law and all the things they were doing. And so I think Rebecca and and the women that we met on that tr on that trip really helped to instill a new confidence and a new sense of purpose in me, where I I think I kind of reached a point in my career where I was like, you know, I've been doing this for a long time. I'll just keep doing this until I retire. And I came back and this opportunity came up to be a GC and to take on a whole new uh scope of responsibility with a completely different career under totally different regulations. And I think the old carry would have said, I think I'm too afraid to do that, or this is easy. I I can stick it out where I am. And and I was, I think Rebecca and all the people on that retreat helped to motivate me to put myself out there and and give it a shot. And I could not be happier that I did. Another side note is that Rebecca connected me with someone to help up my wardrobe game. And so that has been a huge I love that.

Cecilia Ziniti27:24
Wow, that gave me the chill. So if you're if you're listening by by podcast, Kerrie's got this like super fetching kind of features top and this amazing background. Um, yeah, so we've got we've got a style icon and a law icon. I love that. But I mean, what would you say to other people in your shoes? So people who maybe been at their their roles a long time and you know, kind of like, oh, maybe I'll retire here, what have you. Um with AI and with everything new, would you tell them to shake it up or what would be the advice?

Kerrie Forbes27:53
Yeah, so I mean, I think advice for people who have been practicing for a long time is obviously different than advice for for younger people, but I think for people who've been practicing for a long time, don't be afraid to try something new. I think a lot of times we get comfortable in the practice area we have or with the firm we're with, or the I mean, I had been with Southwest for 16 years. I I love the company. I I still love Southwest. It's it's a great company with great people. You know, and I I thought I would be there forever. And I think that we all get very comfortable in in the practice areas that we have. And and the thought of, oh my gosh, do I have the skill set to lead an entire legal team to be responsible for everything legal? Can I do this? And the self-doubt. And I know uh I know that's that tends to be more common with women, but just fighting that to say, you know what, give it a try. You never know if you don't try it. Truly, that last year was one of the hardest years of my career. I worked really, really, really hard, but I enjoyed every minute of it. And I feel like I'm getting more comfortable in my role this year. But I absolutely love my job.

Cecilia Ziniti29:01
You mentioned the fundamental sense of fairness as a as a as a trait of yours. Any other values that you would say guide your decision making or North Star?

Kerrie Forbes29:10
Yeah, I mean, I definitely think playing fair it would be the first one. So it's not just a fundamental sense of fairness, but playing fair, I think that some of the companies that have been trying to bring down our business haven't really been playing fair in the way they've been doing it. And I I just think that's wrong. I think it if you want to take on a fight, you should play in a fair way. I think being a zealous advocate for my my company, and it's important to work for a company that you actually do believe in. And so it would be hard for me to advocate and with the passion that I have if I didn't truly believe in the company, but but I do.

Cecilia Ziniti29:46
I love that. Wow. Let's let's let's let's do lightning rounds. Any misconceptions about aviation law that that you'd love to address here?

Kerrie Forbes29:54
We touched on this a little bit, but that JSX somehow operates under a loophole, a regulatory loophole. Pull. It's completely wrong. Any book concept or habit that helps you lead more effectively? Anything anything jumping out? Yes. So when I started at JSX, our leadership team had just recently implemented the EOS model. I don't know if you're familiar with it. It's called the entrepreneur entrepreneurial operating system. It's from a book called Traction. So we actually have we structure all of our leadership meetings. And I actually have my legal team meetings under the same model where we it's a very specific kind of regimented model for leadership and for getting things done. By following that, I feel like we have been extremely productive over the last year. In fact, my legal team met lit this week and we all rated it a 10. And if you know the EOS model, you know that's a really good thing. And it really forces you to be accountable to the others on your team and also to get things done. I love that. I'm a total productivity nerd. Any productivity tips to share? Productivity tips. I mean, I I like to have processes in place, which we really didn't have a lot coming in into the into JSX. So we're setting up, you know, set up a scoreboard and a dashboard for tracking our matters and our spend and things like that. I don't know that that helps so much with productivity. I think GCAI is probably what's helped us the most with productivity and trying to be more efficient and effective with our time. I I think I said before triage and prioritization. I think it's really important to know what you need to spend your time on because some things, yeah, you you may need to rent it by legal and get get a nod or a a no, but you really can't afford to spend that much time on something that's not a bigger priority.

Cecilia Ziniti31:33
I love that. Any advice for early career lawyers, right? So um, you know, you obviously've got uh a unique perspective with with your daughter and you know, re rewinding the clock and you've seen literally the aviation industry grow up and you know, lot lots of incredible things. What what's your what's your advice to either, you know, younger Kerrie or uh to your to the new lawyers now?

Kerrie Forbes31:56
So I think when I when I give the advice to Lily, I look back and I see where I could have done things better. And I think I was so focused on getting the job done and then and and having a family and doing other things that I maybe didn't say yes to enough opportunities to go to lunch with more people or network with more people. You know, the the retreat that you and I went on, I I would never have said yes to that years ago. And and so take the time to build that network. Take the time and and if you have a job and you end up moving to a different job or you move to in-house or you move from in-house from one company to another, keep those relationships. Don't don't, you know, burn any bridges, but maintain those relationships because the bigger your network, the better. Um, and the and the more people that you especially when I'm in-house, you know, because I I have to have a great network of outside counsel. And so maintaining those relationships across across the different um stages of your life. I think the the other thing is just to give yourself grace for the different uh seasons of our life, as my as my husband's firm likes to say, we do all go through these different seasons of our life and and at some periods you may pull back a little bit. Sometimes you may be all in, you know, 150% and have to give on on a few other things. Give yourself grace for these different seasons because if you stick with it and you keep those connections and and you keep your skill set, you can you can still continue on with a career and do really fun and exciting things. You never know where you're gonna end up. That's great advice.

Cecilia Ziniti33:30
Kerrie, you're helping lean an airline, changing how we travel, shaping legal leadership, inspiring the next generation, giving me chills and stories of inspiration in your own life. If someone listened to just this episode to understand how you lead, what's one lesson they should take on?

Kerrie Forbes33:45
I think I lead with positivity as much as I can and with passion for my company.

Cecilia Ziniti33:51
Thank you again, Kerrie. It's been a joy having you on. Well, thank you so much. That was my conversation with Kerrie Forbes, the leader navigating growth, regulation, and transformation, one of the most complex, highly regulated industries out there. Her story is a reminder that being bold doesn't just protect innovation, takes it to the next level, makes it possible. And she's bringing passion and positivity, and it's just, I'm feeling so inspired with the spring in my step. I'm gonna go try to have um try to get on a jet to Orange County. If you enjoyed today's episode, please follow CZ and Friends wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe to our newsletter at gc.ai slash newsletter. We're gonna have guest drops, event updates, behind the scenes takeaways. Thanks so much for listening and have a great day.