How ClassDojo's Legal Chief Designs for Trust

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)01:07
Tina, welcome to the show.

Tina01:09
Thank you so much. And may I say it is a pleasure to be in sort of the the company of in-house royalty. I I think of you as in-house royalty, by the way. It's such such a legendary story of a in-house council moving up the ranks to GC and now founder and starting your own company. It's amazing. You you are you are a role model for us all. So I'm I'm thrilled to be here.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)01:37
Thank you so much, Tina. That was super kind. Excited to excited to dive in. And you know, this idea that like in house legal is having a moment now, it just it's just it makes me so happy. So I'm really excited to to dive in with you. Welcome to the show.

Tina01:51
Thank you so much.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)01:53
All right, so class dojo, tell us what is the product and how do users and students experience it?

Tina02:01
Yeah, Class Dojo is at its core, it's a commun communication collaboration app. So it's not actually like that much different than my work at WhatsApp or at Twitter and any of my other other stops in the sense that it enables teachers, parents, and kids to communicate and collaborate with one another. It's really interesting in this moment as tech tools are popping up in the classroom because it's such an important important function, but it's also an important function to do so in a safe manner. And so I love it in terms of the issues it raises to really build a product where trust is very much at its core and very much part of its identity and design. It's a it's a great to be part of that conversation and great to be part of that that thinking in terms of building that product for trust first.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)03:02
So part of my role I worked on Kindle at Amazon and then I was at a company called Anki that had products for kids as well. And I and I the the way I thought about it was like, okay, these are people's kids, whatever the legal risk or whatever the issue, just kind of take a I can you know you can imagine like a dial, just like turn it up some percentage.

Tina03:23
Absolutely.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)03:24
So so how does that how does that show up? Is it like at the feature level? Is it like, you know, even in their hiring of of of someone like you to lead legal? Like what what does that mean for like on the on the legal side? And then do you have any kind of like pearls of wisdom or ways that you explain that to folks in the business?

Tina03:43
Yeah, I mean I I I I don't have wisdom. I have a lot of scars from from many, many different, many different problem solving situations and many different crisis situations. But I think you're absolutely right. when you build a product like Class Dojo and other products where you're really asking a community to rely on you and to really trust you with their kids. They're sensitive data. It could be any product that that that is basically asking for that trust. I think you really have to think about almost legal compliance as kind of table stakes and really not really the question that you want to be asking for. And I know that's a that's a really spicy take for a lawyer to say like, it's not about the law. But I what I mean is is that the law is really sort of the the foundation and an input when you think about building for trust. But really you're talking about creating that feeling and it's a it's almost recreating that human emotion between the user and that technology. And that is more than a legal compliance exercise. And it it almost has to happen at sort of a infrastructure type level. where you start thinking about your products from design onwards in terms of how do you create that emotion and how do you build upon that emotion so that users keep on coming back to you. and I know that's something, Chichilia, you you you believe in because I I think I heard a a a podcast that you were on where you talked about how creating that emotion was such an impact for one of your engineers. And I I do think that that's kind of the winning recipe for really creating that trust is really designing for that at a foundational level. And there's not a science to it. And I think that's the tricky part. there's not a science to it. It takes, you know, values, it takes principles, it takes a lot of deep conversation because you're almost recreating that human relationship. And when you think about human relationships, you're kind of recreating, you know, these fundamentals of who are you? Transparency? Why should I rely on you? You know, how do you create that consistency with your product? What happens when I have a falling out with you? You know, how do I control this? How do I dispute this? And then fundamentally they will you embarrass me? Will you will you will you shame me? And that and that's another thing that you you you know it's deeply human. And I think sometimes people don't understand that when we're recreating tech. We talk about we think we talk about growth and metrics, but we don't talk about that feeling where creating that feeling really brings the user back to you again and again and again. And might I add, well. come back to you despite perhaps like a price a price increase or despite you know other services popping up that may undercut you on price that creation of feeling of reliability of knowing how you got to the answer that you're giving me or how you got to where you are in terms of the reliance of the system. That's I think really fundamental to creating a system and a and a technology that's based on trust. And again, the spicy take here is that the legal compliance component i is just it's just one factor. It's just one factor of that entire equation.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)07:35
Yeah, I mean, there was a when I advised on trust and safety once, it was like, you know, it's not illegal to have a product where, you know, your users hate each other and are super mean. You know, that's not illegal as an example. But like you you you used a lot of very emotive words, right? You you know, trust and love and feeling and shame and all these things. Make that real for us, right? So like you're in a feature discussion.

Tina07:45
Yeah. Totally.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)08:01
And you know, I'm gonna make this up. Let's say, you know, they want a feature where, you know, you can sell advertising or something. I mean, like I I'm making this up, but like like think of like a crazy feature. How do you actually ground the legal advice or the the advice that you're giving, right? Which of course is beyond legal, but you know, legal is one piece of it, but what it would put put it make us a fly on the wall. You're you're advising on on some new thing and you're trying to distill that that wisdom that you just gave. What what does it look like?

Tina08:27
Yeah. I'll give you I'll give you examples from, you know, many, many different stops. and so, you know, first of all, we have this idea that, you know, well, COPPA only applies to kids, you know, under 13. Great. But when I sit in a design meeting with my engineers and I my product people, I often ask them, hey, do you have a 14-year-old? Do you have a 15-year-old? Do you have a 16? Do you have a 16 year old? When I talk about age appropriate design, but just forget about the law, forget about COPPA, forget about the law. What, what capability do you think your 14, 15, and 16 year olds have in terms of understanding what this technology is doing and how to control it? And and you you just put yourself as a parent in those shoes and really ground yourself in the user. in this case, which is your fifth 14, 15, 16-year-old, and how do you think they would be interacting with this product? And how do you think they would be able to understand what you're trying to tell them? And I think that really grounds the conversation when you are trying to not only meet a compliance bar, but design for trust is really grounding in what that user is, who that user is, I should say. And also what their capabilities will be and giving a really close example of like, would you expect your 80-year-old grandmother to understand this? Would you expect your 14-year-old to understand this? And what what level of control would you want as a parent for any of this, regardless of the legal ramifications and the legal and the legal bar? What would you want from the perspective of ha being a parent of a 14-year-old? And usually that sends the you know that sends the all of my tech people on edge because they're like, my gosh, my fourteen year old, they're crazy. Like they don't understand anything. Like I do not trust them with the internet whatsoever. Like, great. So let's let's start there. So, you know, let let's start there for if you're designing for a 14 year old and you're a parent, what would you expect and what would you want to control? You and I are children of immigrants, you know, it it plays out also differently f globally. And so oftentimes in a conversation, you know, I also want to bring up not only are you designing for this user that you have in your mind, but you're designing, let's say, for the user that is also maybe different. And so you also have to think about, hey, the user sitting in Asia, in Lat Latam, in Europe, may think a a lot, a lot differently about this. So let's also think about that. and I think so I think in those conversations, grounding yourself in sort of the real life examples of how users would be interacting with your product and the expectations is usually the place to start for those trust discussions.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)11:40
Yeah, I mean it it's funny because I it it sounds a lot like product design at large, right? So Deb Lou, who's the was I think you you worked with it when she was CEO, but she was at Meta and tells a story in her book of how she made the case over a number of years that Facebook should have a marketplace. And one of the things that she explained was, well, you know, when you have a baby and you want to get a, you know, a stroller or whatever, then like clearly like this is a local thing where you're not gonna like ship your stroller or whatever. So there should be a local marketplace. And she talks about how at the time a lot of the engineers that she was working with, you know, didn't have kids slash were rich because they were to Facebook. So this idea of like of of re a resale marketplace a la Craigslist was just like not landing. And then she found, she tells the story that like five years later they started to have kids and we're like, Deb, you know, you were like so thousand percent right. And so it is it this like, do you seek out companies that have that user empathy? Do you look at user stories? Like, how does that, I guess, customer empathy that you explained, like, give us maybe one or two more examples of how how that shows up. At Class Dojo or you were also at Twitter or just an any any any fun example of kind of a a user empathy story that that helped you reach a legal goal.

Tina13:04
Yeah, you know, it's so funny. It I think user empathy comes in so many different ways and sometimes, you know, at large companies, you know, there's like a whole dedicated team for like UX research and you know, you wanna make sure that you're plugged in and you can do testing with anything that you're releasing. But for most companies, they're not gonna have that. They're they're not gonna have a whole dedicated team dedicated to this. and and so I think you really you're trying to hire for people at the ground at the ground level that have that intuitive sense of connecting with the user and creating technology that connects with the user in that way. At the smaller companies, you know, you don't have a UX team, but guess what? You can hire a whole team of product designers and product managers and engineers who have that sense of like Wait a minute, who is my user and what am I building this? What am I building this? Who am I building this for? And what what am I doing here? and and really almost creating that sense from the ground up that that is what you want to to gravitate towards. When we launched location so location features were like the big thing when we were coming coming up you know, in our in our time at our at the big companies of like, my god, it's amazing with these phones, you can share your location.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)14:29
Yes.

Tina14:29
And it is it is great. Guess what? You know, as soon as we enabled these features, we started hearing from women who were domestic violence survivors who absolutely hated that this function was default on. We heard from folks outside of the country who were conversely location tracking was like This is great. I I actually want this for the safety of my family, of knowing where everybody is. And so, you know, even after the design period, you start getting sort of the real life feedback after you release the product. And I think there you really have to be mindful of that feedback. And that usually comes through from a really good CX customer support team who's able to surface these trends and be able to pivot quickly. Because you're not gonna be able to think of every different scenario before you launch. It's the whole launch and iterate mode that that Silicon Valley is known for. But the ability to pivot quickly when you get that feedback of like, we never thought about how this would impact domestic violence survivors. We never thought about, wait a minute, like this this this control setting. we may want this default off for certain circumstances. We may actually want this default on in other circumstances when, you know, there's a there's a minor involved and maybe parents want to set up their accounts in that way. And so I I really think that, you know, first kind of hiring for that talent from the very beginning, for that intuitive sense. And then also being able to pivot quickly when you once you get that user feedback is is the key to success there.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)16:21
Love it. So relevant here to this kind of design mindset, listening to user feedback, iterating, obviously that's kind of the a a lot of the Silicon Valley way. You've worked at some iconic companies on that. You came up as a software developer and then you spent a decade at Google and this idea of being an embedded product council. So what what it what is what does that mean? And what is

Tina16:45
Was it a real drop? Is that what you're trying to ask me?

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)16:48
Yeah. I mean it was like well I I think like the idea of product council. So you mentioned in the prep Alex Mangler and then I I I forgot the the other person that you mentioned. Yes, yes.

Tina16:57
O Wan and Alex McGilvery, yeah. They were they were sort of the the OGs of the product council concept. yeah, you know, it's so it's so funny. When I when I first started as in-house counsel, I had an IP background. And so my family just assumed, you're doing I you're doing IP, you're you're you're a patent counsel. And I And to this day I feel like my dad still doesn't understand what I do, but one time I tried to explain, it was like, No, no, so I I'm actually, you know, a a business counsel, I'm a product counsel. He's like, So y so you deal with the IP, right? I was like, Yes, kind of, sort of. it was actually the brainchild of I you know, I don't know if it was actually Alex and Nicole who started it, but I'll I'll just attribute it to them.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)17:35
No.

Tina17:50
since they were the ones who first introduced me to this concept of really embedded counsel within a product area or business line who not only could advise you on the legal issues but were such embedded that they are able to really understand the product and the legal risk trade-off and be able to kind of calibrate their advice. in a way that normal outside counsel, normal in-house counsel that was just functionally aligned wouldn't be able to do. And so it was such a really great training ground for a junior lawyer like myself being able to just be thrust into and embedded within this product line and just learn. Learn all about the product and then be able to make these risk trade-offs and really kind of help advise the business, particularly emerging businesses, as they're trying to make these risk decisions in a rapid way so that they could grow. and it it is really, I think, a really neat job that's been created out of in-house tech. And I think really, especially in the age of AI, you know, I I I think I see these funny job postings now of Frontier Council. It's like what what is that? You know, like Frontier Model Council. And I was like, and then I read the description. I'm like, okay. So this is this is a product council who is going to advise on the creation of frontier models. I I get it. I get I I I I get that. and so I I really think it was just a really great creation of a specialty within the the in-house ranks. and I I think it's it's again, so impactful right now in the age of AI where in house is moving quickly, you have to transition quickly and you have to really, really understand the products to advise the business in a risk calibrated way.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)19:59
Of everything you achieved as as product counsel, either at Google or Twitter or now class dojo, what are you most proud of?

Tina20:10
Ooh, great question. I you know, I I go back to y you'll you'll you'll know you'll notice I go back to the human the human theme a lot. I definitely go back to the fact that I was able to build large teams and build legal frameworks from scratch and be able to advise these emerging businesses. But have such deep impact on the people. I think that those those, you know, as you look back on our career, when you, you know, think about the titles or the, you know, the the projects, like those those kind of like fade away. But you really think about the the people that you've mentored, they you know, they they reach out to you of like, hey, what do you think about this? What do you think about that, even if you're no longer managing them? And then you have your, you know, PMs and edge folks who, you know, reach out to you and you're like, Hey, like, I have this legal question. My lawyer's telling me X, but I don't really know. And I just want to like calibrate that with you. and so you think about sort of those relationships and how they last. and they they give me so much pleasure when, you know, someone from my network who I don't work with on a daily basis reaches out like that because You know then that you've kind of created that lasting impact through growing and scaling a a a a legal team. and that they they not only they value you as a as a coworker, but they value you as a as a as a person who had good judgment and now they're now they're faced with uncertainty again. And like, hey, I I really I I could really like value your judgment here and and be a sounding board and and Yeah, that's what that's what I would say that I'm most proud of is that I've been able to create those relationships and kind of create that create that network.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)22:15
You mentioned developing your people. You had a team of 35, product council. We have a lot of listeners who are at different points in their careers and their in house careers. what makes someone stand out and make you want to invest more in them?

Tina22:34
It's a great question. It's so f it's so funny because my answer was probably will have probably will probably have changed over the years if you've asked me this like earlier in my career as a manager versus now. you know, it used to be that I hired for a certain background training. they've been at this place, they've been at that place. I know that they will have the the requisite training and they've been through the fire and so they'll know they'll know what to do. But now I really look for that baseline curiosity. especially in the age of AI tooling and AI tooling in the legal space. And you know, GCAI is changing how the legal practice i is is is done in the Silicon Valley and and you know and so many other tools like like GCAI as well. I don't need the lawyer necessarily that, you know, can recite the treatise to me or has done this five different times. I need the lawyer who is gonna be able to adapt and who has this Both basically innate curiosity to explore more. And so now that's what I look for when I hire and I really mentor and nurture folks because I think that's the evolution of being the in-house lawyer. It's that lawyer who is going to sit down with a tool like GCAI and say, you know what? I'm gonna play around with this and I'm gonna set up my workflow. Such that I can start my day basically with like ten percent of my work already popped up for me and and and also analyzed for what I should prioritize. It takes a certain I think mindset to be curious about that and to play and to explore and to maybe change the change the way that they've always done things. and That to me is talent in this day and age and talent that I look for in growing my team. is that is that curiosity and adaptability and that desire to grow while this legal landscape is changing.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)25:18
I love this. The the human theme comes through so resoundingly, where I say, you know, who sticks out in your team at 35? And I'm thinking, you know, calibration and skill assessment and these things. And you're like, no, curiosity in play are literally part of part of your answer. That's fantastic. How does that how do lawyers do that? Because I I I I guess for us, the drive that we have to be perfect, to do a very good job.

Tina25:23
I know.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)25:45
to be good at things, right? So I took one of these like Myers Briggs type things and it said, you know, you don't like to play games you can't win. And I was kind of like, yeah, that that sounds right. So how do you foster in your team that everything you described knowing, you know, the kind of lawyer personality. And then if you want to generalize that, you said, you know, this is a new era. You've got GCAI, you've got other tools where, you know, the legal answer, the research is is effectively free. so how do you how how how do you foster that both as a profession and and in your people then given this perfectionist slash wanna win personality?

Tina26:28
I know, I know. I you know, I I actually think that's like one of the major major hindrances of lawyers who wanna further develop into legal executives or climb the executive ladder is that is that desire, that desire to know with certainty that the answer that they're giving is a hundred percent correct. And know that, you know, every like case law cited in their head for the answer that they're going to give. And again, this is going to be a spice, spicy take of like Tina Wong said the law does not matter for being a legal executive. And that is not what I mean. What I what I mean is that I I do think it is a balance when you are kind of

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)27:12
Yeah. Yeah.

Tina27:23
rising the level of your legal game in terms of being able to meet the business where it's at in terms of business need and be able to to deliver maybe the 80% answer in a confident way and know that that's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay. and so to kind of train yourself to Allow yourself to be not perfect. You know, I I know that that's a that's a that's a roundabout way of answering your question, but I do think that as lawyers, we're trained to be a hundred percent certain, a hundred percent button up on the law. And yes, you do have to know your stuff. Do not get me wrong. You have to know your stuff, and you have to almost like start with that as table stakes. But once you get to a certain level where you develop that instinct and that judgment. Guess what? Like, you know, like your 80% is probably better than most folks out there, because you've honed that 80% for the practical reality of the circumstance because you've been through the fire, you know, of you know, you you you've launched products at Cruz and at an Amazon of like autonomous vehicles, of like you've been through the fire, and so you you know that your 80% is pretty good. And so I think to to really kind of allow yourself that mindset. and then also I think to also carve out time. you know, sometimes I think that we're so wedded to our to-do list. And by the way, if you ask my husband, he's like, I cannot believe you're saying this on a podcast because you have a million one to-do lists. and he's absolutely right. I do have a million one to-do lists.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)29:10
Ha ha.

Tina29:16
But I also try to carve out my Friday afternoons for almost I wouldn't call it play, but but but I would say I carve out an hour or two of like, you know what, I'm just gonna play around with creating a skill. Like what is that? What is a what what is what is a connector? How do I how do I, you know, connect the AI tool to my drive, to my Slack? How do I how do I do this? I'm just gonna I'm just gonna play around with this a little bit. And so carving out that one hour in an afternoon, just to allow yourself that mind space to to do that, I think is also really key, in addition to like letting yourself have some rope of like, you know what, like this is gonna be 80% and this is actually going to be okay, and it's actually better for the business that they get an answer from me that's eighty percent right now.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)30:13
Love that. you've had a switching gears a little bit, you've had a very global job. You mentioned stepping up in different moments, you know, crises. one of our guests had been you know, Holly Hogan had been had met, I think, royalty in in Jordan based on some public policy things she was doing. Any fun I know that was cool. That was cool. Any fun kind of stories. Obviously at Twitter, I think I I heard someone speak from the Twitter Trust and Safety team and said, you know, one in a million on Twitter happens every seven minutes because there's more than a million tweets every seven minutes. And so you think these one in a million occurrences, you know, freak accidents, whatever it is, or kind of like some of the the user issues that you mentioned. anything you can share or any any moment that stands out, you're like, I'm gonna get on a plane to Country X because crisis Y.

Tina31:13
Yeah, I mean l I I so appreciate my time at WhatsApp because it really did put me in the mindset of you're not building for a US audience because WhatsApp at that time was not popular with a US audience. It actually was more popular and more widely used by design internationally. talk about trust by design, you know, the the co-founders of WhatsApp really kind of built the end to end encryption in mind with a with a global mindset and also kind of built the product from a a global perspective because one of the founders actually was a was also an immigrant. and so to me you know th that that atmosphere of coming into a product that was also global from its start was such an amazing experience. we forever wanted to launch payments in India for WhatsApp and we we we finally did and I remember sort of the the the day that we did it was in the middle of COVID and I there was no offices and in order to launch I had to sign this document from the I believe like the government of India or s it some and I was just such surrealness of I had to have a notary come to my house in the middle of COVID and it's this official government document that I'm signing with the government of India in order to launch this thing. and you know, this has been a tr a twenty-four hour window after negotiating with the government of India and the banks of India and the regulators of India. And it really does highlight that when you operate at that global stage, it's almost as much about the law as it is politics. And we had a twenty four hour political window in which this this this this would launch into a pilot. And we took that. and you know, there was there was obviously there was risk and you know, there are many conversations about risk, but I think when you operate at that global scale, you have to be prepared to seize upon the political winds as well and have that be a factor in your launch planning essentially. And I and I think, you know, sometimes when companies Only build for the US, that gets lost a little bit. They it gets lost that when you launch globally, you're being invited to the house of another. And you have to learn the rules of that of the of that house. And you have to understand the customs and you have to understand the politics. And that takes a a lot of investment and it also takes a lot of understanding of the politics of what's surrounding that particular country. And I and I think that that gets underappreciated sometimes when businesses have found tremendous success in the US and then they try to retrofit what it means to launch successfully globally.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)34:48
Interesting. So you mentioned politics. I think couple couple things that I'd be curious your take on. so when you work at Meta and in particular on WhatsApp, but also in general, you know, two out of three humans on Earth use a meta service every day. And when you think about the impact, I read an article once where the journalist opined that you know, your average director at Meta perhaps has more power than many heads of state in terms of impact that they can have on someone's daily life, right? So you turn on payments in India and suddenly a billion people can transact. You shut down a service in a country and you can affect, you know, p political things, obviously famously elections, but also just people's daily lives. how do you not let or how did people at the company not let that go to their heads?

Tina35:37
Mm. Yeah, it's a great question. I'm gonna need a a drink of coffee while I while I think I'm thinking about that one. That was a that is a spicy one. You know, I

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)35:52
Yeah.

Tina35:59
It's so funny. You know, I when we were coming up, it was you know, social media. That social media and being part of social media, like that was sort of like the the the bell of the day. And you're absolutely right. Like you do feel the impact of of that and the weight and the weight of that. and hopefully you know, you understand that with great power also comes great responsibility. But I also think that in order to stay stay humble and stay hungry, you have to also understand the evolution of of tech. I mean, y you and I we've been in the valley for for a a long time. So we've seen these ebbs and flows. And so I think that, you know, the The bell of the day is AI. It's no longer social media. And, you know, before that it was you know ARVR. And so, you know, I think, you know, one has to particularly for someone like me and and you have been around, you you stay humble when knowing that these things ebb and flow. one day you were working on the you know, the the bell of the day tech that's gonna change and revolutionize the world and it and it will. But guess what? This is how tech works. The the next day there is gonna be another inundative breakthrough. And that's gonna be sort of what everybody gravitates towards in terms of, you know, this is the tech that's gonna save the day, save the world, impact the world. and so I think staying humble is is easy when you've been through these ups and downs. if you're young and you're just coming up and and you're, you know, like you're you're riding the way, I I would I guess, you know, again, this is gonna be another human element story. I would say I would study study study the the history. Study the history of tech. Learn. You know, learn from the pitfalls of social media and where how it came to be and the power it had and then also the responsibility that it had and how you know in some cases it stepped up to the responsibility in some cases it may not have stepped up to the responsibility as quicker as as quickly as we would have wanted and and learn and and hopefully you know understand that you know, you are in a in a great powerful position now with the ability to impact folks, but it also comes with responsibility and and make sure that you understand what that responsibility is and and hopefully take those lessons that I'm I'm talking about in terms of building for trust and and drive that within your organization.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)39:12
One more question before we'll turn the tables, which is a fun one. But yeah, one one more. So you mentioned AI is the bell of the ball. I'm not you've been in tech a long time. You're a student of history. What is your prediction for AI? it's three years from now. How are we practicing law?

Tina39:15
Yeah. Wow. that's another great one. You know, I I so I I don't I don't believe in extremes. So I I'm not I don't I don't believe in like the, you know, AI is gonna replace, you know, every single lawyer out there, nor do I believe that like, AI is completely a bust. but I I do think that you know

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)39:36
Yeah.

Tina40:01
like mobile phones, we will be in three years' time, we will adapt to basically a workflow that enc encompasses every single legal workflow will encompass AI. There will be no workflow that doesn't have AI from intake to research to output. I I do think that there will always be some type of human judgment. to my to my kind of thesis in the beginning of like building for trust means that you know you you do have to kind of build that relationship with the human operator in showing the work and making sure that you know they particularly with legal AI tools that the lawyer who is ultimately gonna deliver the work product is is is comfortable that that is the that is the work product that the and they're gonna continue to rely on you. And so in in the same way, you know, when I was this is again, dating dating me incredibly, but I had a blackberry. Right? Like I had a blackberry, like

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)41:09
Like like that's what he reminded me of. Like I think we're in the Blackberry era where I I tell this story that when I was at when I was at Yahoo, they came out and said, okay, only directors and above can have blackberries. And I remember being like, one day I will be a director and I will get one. But like now, obviously, you know, I I it's funny because in three years, then it went from directors only to literally, can you imagine trying to work without a phone? Like it makes no sense.

Tina41:12
Yeah, no. Right, exactly. Exactly.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)41:35
It literally is like a it's it's it becomes like the water where like you're in it.

Tina41:39
Exact it totally, exactly. And so like you and I had Blackberries and that was like the coolest thing. And I and for the longest time I loved that thing because of the the whole like tactile like Yeah, yeah. I loved it. I loved it. But can you again, like, you know, every single workflow now has to be created for the mobile, the mobile instance. And mobile phones are so integrated with your

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)41:49
I know so good. I think it's sending back. I need to send you back. Yes.

Tina42:06
legal workflow. And I think in the same way with with AI. It's just gonna be part of your workflow, just like a mobile phone of like no, you're not gonna just like carry around your IBM think pad with you every you're gonna have you're gonna have your your set of tools that you rely on.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)42:17
No, exactly. Well it's No, I mean I love it. It's like I think if if we think of the soundbite for the for the LinkedIn post here is like we're in the Blackberry era of AI and like soon we'll we'll be past it. I love that. All right. So let's turn the table.

Tina42:32
I I think I still have my Blackberry actually somewhere somewhere like in my in my boxes I have it. I 'cause I loved it so much.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)42:38
Incredible product design, incredible product naming. And now they're an IP company to that point. But all right, so let's turn the tables. So a reason for the turning tables. So Tina is an LP in the council, which was an early investor in GCAI. So the council is comprised of operators around the valley and Amber Illig, who is the the principal and founder of that VC fund, and I work together crews. So essentially, Tina, I guess full disclosure here is a small investor in GCAI through that position. But based on that, I'm gonna turn the tables. She's gonna interview me. Go ahead, go ahead, Tina.

Tina43:13
Yeah. Well listen, again, I open up the broad podcast by saying just like how how amazing your career has been. and and really I I I mean that because I think to make the transition from the legal field to the business field, being CEO and starting up your vo own business, like it it's it's a it's a big mind shift. And and you had asked me, like, how do you train yourself to, you know, think in in in different ways? and I and I would love to kind of understand from you, like, how did you train yourself from being kind of the risk counselor in the room, the risk counselor in the room, to now sort of the opposite end of like you're now the decision maker and you have this like legal person probably buzzing in your ear saying like this is the risk? Like, you know, like what what should what should we do? H how was that shift for you? And how do you think about risk differently now as the as the CEO?

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)44:17
Yeah, so this is fundamental to making the shift from GC to CEO. Absolutely. And in my case, I sometimes don't know how long I stayed at GC because the risk training, like I understood the risk, but I always gravitated to the opportunity. And I think that to the product counsel point made me quite a good product counsel because product counsel was really product development. It wasn't should we launch this? It was how do we launch the thing.

Tina44:46
Yeah. Yeah.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)44:47
And now I think that thinking in terms of opportunity, of like what happens if this is a smashing success? That's one of my favorite questions to ask during a product review is like, what does wild success look like for this? And this like idea that I got from Amazon of think big, that thinking big is a self-fulfilling prophecy. And similarly, we've talked on this pod about a podcast about a book called Burn the Boats. And his point is. If you spend all this time on the risk on plan B, that's mental energy you're not spending on plan A. Now, that being said, I incredibly value my lawyers, my G C the risk mindset. We had a almost did an acquisition recently, we ended up walking away from, and then it turned out that it was absolutely the right decision. And even in my own career, like I would encourage people to practice this looking for opportunity. And looking for opportunity can be your own job search, for example. You know, like leaving the safety of a big company for AI right now, you know, that's that's a tough decision. But if you look at it of like, what does wild success look like and bet on yourself, that's how you make the transition. But I will admit it is it is still, you know, hard and and it and it's something where I come back to like what is it, the most secure software does nothing. If you take no risk, you're not doing anything. And so I th that's I would say the biggest the the biggest step that I've taken.

Tina46:16
I I love that. And so often, this is kind of a a pet peeve of mine, like so often I we would go into these like big launch meetings of like, you know, Face Rack is is definitely one that's, you know, fraught with fraught fraught with uncertainty. So at any any company that that sort of like wants to do anything within that area, you have to kind of identify sort of the the risk. And to me, I was almost, you know, always Almost, you know, perplexed. I'm like, wait, wait a minute. We we all know the risk. Like, we all know that this is a risky area. Why are we talking about this? Why are we not talking about the opportunity? Like, tell me about the opportunity and the upside so that we could really evaluate like what what the trade-offs are. Like, let's let's talk about the upside. And I feel like some Tom sometimes we don't talk about that enough. Like, what is the upside? And what is the opportunity?

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)47:15
Well,

Tina47:15
Unity.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)47:16
and I come back to some of, you know, your whole student of tech thing, right? Where it was like, okay, so online advertising, you know, used to be that serving relevant ads was was a debate, right? And I remember people like Antoth, you know, presenting to Congress and things about it that like, hey, actually people want relevant ads. And now, you know, my Instagram feed, pretty relevant. I'm getting like, you know, athletic greens and whatever it is I'm being served, you know, kind of like workout stuff and you know, pro beautiful purses and whatever. And like this idea that personalization as a tech used to be used to be controversial and and now it's not. So that that turning that on, I think tech taught me that as well. I think that's a it's a nice and I think other industries now at GCAI, we work with many lawyers in many different industries. I think AI has turned that on quite a lot for industry, which is which has been fun to see.

Tina48:04
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and also, you know, with new technology, the the I would say like the user tolerance of risk also changes as well. and so, you know, there were at a privacy conference that I attended once, you know, the the someone said something that that just it it it really like stuck with me of How AI basically could swallow the concept of privacy. Now, again, like I don't s I don't I don't I don't think that take take don't take that to the extreme. But you know what? If I had a good personal assistant that could do a lot of the tasks that I spend my brain doing rather than, you know, doing the stuff I want to be doing, I'm

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)48:37
Yeah, yeah.

Tina48:55
Be willing to make some of the trade-offs on privacy that would be different than what I had previously made if I could get that power of that of that assistant.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)49:04
Totally. I mean you think about even, you know, to your point on location, right? Used to be like maps, you couldn't, you know, you you had to print your map and now you can you can go where you want to go. I love this. This has been such a fun conversation, Tina.

Tina49:16
Thank you so much. Really enjoyed it.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)49:19
Awesome. All right. So last one. a just a parting words of wisdom in a couple of sentences. Someone is a new lawyer just starting out at a company. What's your two sentences of advice?

Tina49:36
Ooh, I think it goes back to stay stay curious and of course know your know the law, study the law, really understand the law and understand the legal concepts, but also be very flexible because the legal industry is changing and you will need to change your practice in accordingly. And those of us who are going to change our practice and be able to adapt to the tools. Like learning to use a mobile phone over a Blackberry. Those of us, th those of us who do that are going to be the ones who can adapt quickly to how the new expectations will be for in-house counsel. and so be hungry and and soak up the sponge of the of the law, that's that remains consistent. But also remain flexible and be curious about exploring technology in a way that I I don't think I think this is like the golden age of legal tech. And so be be willing to explore there and and stay stay stay hung what is it? Stay hungry, stay foolish. Like stay stay hungry there and and in in exploring those tools.

Cecilia Ziniti (GC AI)50:46
Perfect. Love it. So with a with a with a Steve Jobs quote and so much wisdom, that was Tina Huang, the head of legal at Class Dojo, one of the sharpest product and privacy minds we've had on this show. An incredible reminder to be human and consider history as as you move forward. So whether you're leading a legal team, working inside one, building the tools that power them, or just want to learn more and in lean into your curiosity to Tina's point, head over to gc.ai to learn more about us and how other forward-thinking leaders in Legal are doing their best work. Follow CZ & Friends wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you so much, and we'll see you next time.